So in that vein, University of
Rhode Island History Professor Erik Loomis has become a twitter celebrity in the last few days
for all the wrong reasons. Since the massacre
in Newtown, Loomis has beclowned himself by saying the following on Twitter, as documented at Popehat:
I was heartbroken in
the first 20 mass murders. Now I want Wayne LaPierre's head on a stick.—
Looks like the
National Rifle Association has murdered some more children.
You are goddamn
right we should politicize this tragedy. F__k the NRA. Wayne LaPierre should be
in prison. [Cursing censored by me.]
Wayne LaPierre is a
criminal and should be in prison for complicity with murder. 27 counts.—
Can we define NRA
membership dues as contributing to a terrorist organization?
Larry Pratt and the
group Gun Owners of America are terrorists and should be dealt with as such.
The right-wing
intimidation campaign against me for saying the NRA was a terrorist
organization continues. Will not succeed.
Dear rightwingers,
to be clear, I don't want to see Wayne LaPierre dead. I want to see him in
prison for the rest of his life. #nraterrorism
In addition to that, Twitchy
catches him saying the following:
I bet terrorist NRA
head Wayne LaPierre will sleep well tonight.—
The NRA pushes for
policies that make it complicit in mass murders in the US and Mexico. Repeal
the 2nd Amendment.—
Another day, another
NRA facilitated terrorist attack. This morning at an Alabama hospital. [linking
to here.]
Your daily
NRA-facilitated terrorism. San Antonio this time. [Linking to the story about
the shooting at a San Antonio theater, I discussed here.]
By the way, we are told that this
bit about “head on a stick” could not possibly be an actionable threat, because
it is a metaphor. Right, because you can
never threaten a person in figurative language.
If a Mafioso says “pay your protection money or you will sleep with the
fishes,” these legal geniuses assure us, that
is not a threat.
Which is my sarcastic way of
pointing out that you can indeed threaten a person with a metaphor.
The real and clear reason, by the
way, that this is not an actionable threat is because it was not plainly
communicated to Mr. LaPierre nor was it plainly directed at being communicated
to him. What this is, then, at worst, is
ruminating about murdering a person, which can be rightfully a concern for law
enforcement but it is not a threat.
(Ken at Popehat is also correct
to say that it is not a threat if it is not meant seriously, but how does he
know that he isn’t serious? I am sure he
doesn’t literally want to put LaPierre’s head on a stick, but I don’t and I won’t
speculate about whether Loomis actually wants to kill him.)
Also in a mild correction of Ken,
he had only retweeted
the following:
First fucker to say the solution is for elementary school teachers to carry guns needs to get beaten to death.
— The Rude Pundit (@rudepundit) December 14, 2012
Now, one should be careful about
interpreting a retweet as an endorsement.
Many people retweet things specifically because they don’t endorse
it. For instance, the late Andrew
Breitbart delighted in retweeting the particularly unhinged tweets directed at
him, as does Michelle Malkin. And I myself
often retweet something when someone says something particularly evil or
clueless, to expose them. But on the
other hand, certain retweets do seem like an endorsement. For instance, when Susan Rice withdrew her
name from consideration for Secretary of State, my dark sense of humor took
over in this tweet:
Ironically Susan Rice said she felt like she was being attacked by an overwhelming force and despite calls for help, it never came
— Aaron Worthing (@AaronWorthing) December 13, 2012
That was retweeted an astonishing
two hundred and twenty five times and
counting, and I think it is safe to assume that at least two hundred and twenty
four of them was because they agreed with my sentiment.
Loomis retweeting that “beaten
to death” comment seems like an endorsement.
This is a person who obviously thinks similarly to him, and his call for
violence—serious or not—are similar to Loomis’.
But that is an ambiguity, so rather than argue over whether this retweet
does imply endorsement, let’s put that aside for now because truthfully it is
not necessary to what I am about to say.
Since Loomis said these things,
there are some people who have argued that he should be fired from his university
job and there are good people such as Ken in the piece I have cited, Adler over
at Volokh, and
eight professors posting collectively at Crooked
Timber.
Now certainly if Loomis had
merely said, “I hate the NRA.” Or even “the
NRA’s policies are dangerous and contributed to Friday’s massacre,” I would
agree with my distinguished colleagues and say he should face no retaliation at
his job. I mean, I of all people don’t
believe that as a rule people should be fired from their jobs for what they say
on their off time. But they are missing (or
in Ken’s case failing to grasp the importance of) the real problem in Loomis’
commentary:
The Problem is Fascism.
You see the real reason why
Loomis should be fired—or at the very least investigated for what he said—is that
his comments are fascist. Bear in mind, I
define fascism as nothing more than a lack of belief in democracy
itself.*
Consider for instance this
comment by Loomis:
You are goddamn
right we should politicize this tragedy. F__k the NRA. Wayne LaPierre should be
in prison. [Cursing censored by me.]
So he believes that LaPierre
should be imprisoned for what exactly?
To the best of my knowledge, LaPierre has broken no laws. All he has done is advocate for a policy—reduced
restrictions on gun ownership—that Loomis disagrees with. Advocacy of the criminalization of opinions
you don’t agree with is the very essence of fascism. He repeats that thought several times:
Wayne LaPierre is a
criminal and should be in prison for complicity with murder. 27 counts.—
Dear rightwingers,
to be clear, I don't want to see Wayne LaPierre dead. I want to see him in
prison for the rest of his life. #nraterrorism
Further he advocates that the NRA
and its leaders be treated as terrorists, again for expressing an opinion he
doesn’t agree with.
Can we define NRA
membership dues as contributing to a terrorist organization?
Larry Pratt and the
group Gun Owners of America are terrorists and should be dealt with as such.
The right-wing
intimidation campaign against me for saying the NRA was a terrorist
organization continues. Will not succeed.
I bet terrorist NRA
head Wayne LaPierre will sleep well tonight.— [on the night of the Newtown
massacre.]
Our government’s response as a
matter of policy to terrorism ranges from freezing funding to criminal
prosecution, to harsh interrogation techniques liberals typically call torture,
to summarily killing them by drone strike.
And for the record, I don’t have a problem with doing this to actual terrorists, but not merely to
people who disagree with you. Advocating
that a group that merely disagrees with you should treated like terrorists is
also fascist.
And his repeated depiction of the
NRA and its leaders as murderers (and terrorists for that matter) and his calls
for violence—serious or not—encourage private violence against these people is
troublesome. The Brownshirts were a
private group terrorizing individuals for saying things they didn’t like, and
they were instrumental to the rise of fascism.
Now this is not to say that this
is incitement within the meaning of
the Brandenburg standard (of which I
am safely considered an expert) and thus can be criminalized or otherwise prohibited. But as a history professor wrote, “such
language can embolden the crazy[.]” And
who wrote that? Erik
Loomis, when arguing that somehow targets on a map caused the Giffords
shooting. What Loomis has been doing is
a tad worse than that. So, add the
charge of hypocrisy to the bill of particulars against this professor.
And even then, ordinarily, this
doesn’t justify a person being fired from their job. Whether a person is a fascist or not, a
brownshirt in waiting, is of no rightful concern to his employer if he was a
bagger at a grocery store, a garbage man, a lawyer, a businessman, etc.
But he is a professor in a
University. Further, it is a state
university. And that is a problem.
Universities can and do have the
right to promote academic freedom, which is just really a gussied up version of
what most of us just call Freedom of Expression. For instance the Supreme Court said in Keyishian
v. Board of Regents of Univ. of State of New York:
The essentiality of
freedom in the community of American universities is almost self-evident. No
one should underestimate the vital role in a democracy that is played by those
who guide and train our youth. To impose any strait jacket upon the intellectual
leaders in our colleges and universities would imperil the future of our
Nation. No field of education is so thoroughly comprehended by man that new
discoveries cannot yet be made. Particularly is that true in the social
sciences, where few, if any, principles are accepted as absolutes. Scholarship
cannot flourish in an atmosphere of suspicion and distrust. Teachers and
students must always remain free to inquire, to study and to evaluate, to gain
new maturity and understanding; otherwise our civilization will stagnate and
die.
My only objection to that
argument is the implication that this freedom to inquire is somehow less important everywhere else. So of course, defenders of Mr. Loomis say,
his idiotic and indeed fascist comments are protected as a matter of academic
freedom!
That is indeed what Ken seems to
say, arguing that Loomis’ comments are anti-speech but still protected speech.
Except not so fast. You see they are overlooking an important
principle:
Academic Freedom Applies to Students, too.
His students have as much of a
right to express differing views, to enjoy freedom of inquiry, and so on, as he
does. I mean a professor can say to a student, “I am teaching right
now, so kindly shut up.” That is
okay. Time, place and manner restrictions
on student expression are fully justified or else teachers wouldn’t be able to
teach.
But, a student should not face
discrimination because his views—when expressed at appropriate times—differ from
his professor. This is the ideal in the
setting of a private university, but it is mandatory in a public one. After all, this professor’s actions are the
actions of the state and thus academic freedom is not merely some ideal, but a constitutional
command under the First Amendment (as incorporated by the Fourteenth).
And bear in mind I am not saying
that Loomis is not entitled to believe what he believes, even passionately
so. If he merely came on twitter and
said he thought assault weapons should be banned, I wouldn’t be talking about
either firing or seriously investigating him due to his words.
But he has gone further than that. He has advocated prison for those he
disagreed with. He advocated designating
political opponents as terrorists, which could bring consequences ranging from
the freezing of funds to being killed summarily. And he has stirred up private violence
against those who disagrees with him.
Do you think he can treat his
students who disagree with him fairly?
And the Right to Bear Arms is
extremely likely to come up in some of the courses he teaches. According to McCain
he teaches “History of the United States to 1877” which covers several relevant
topics in which the issue would naturally arise. The American Revolution, for instance, is almost
universally cited by those who are pro-choice about gun ownership as the very
reason for the Second Amendment’s existence.
As I have said myself regularly, the founders had just finished rebelling
with the use of arms against British rule and were afraid that the new Federal
Government was going to be tyrannical over them; it is absurd to suggest that
they granted this government the right to take their arms. Likewise, when talking about the battles of
Lexington and Concord a pro-gun-choice student might be tempted to point out
that these battles were prompted by British attempts to take away the weapons
of the colonists. When one discusses the
ratification of the Constitution, the discussion might turn to Federalist 46 where
Madison wrote that
Notwithstanding the
military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as
far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the
people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not
be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional
advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of
the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the
militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of
every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions
which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America
with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which
they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary
power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us
rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce
themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame
submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and
produce it.
In essence, Madison was saying, “don’t
worry about the new Federal Government becoming a tyranny. With arms, and state governments to lead the
charge, you will be able to overthrow the Federal Government, if it does become
tyrannical.” One might even think it is
strange to argue that the same man who wrote those words would propose a Constitution
and a Second Amendment that didn’t protect the Right to Bear Arms. Indeed, if it was ever shown to be the case that
Madison believed the Federal Government could
take your guns even after the Second Amendment was ratified, one could
rightfully accuse him of obtaining the ratification of our Constitution by
fraud.
Indeed as one discusses the ratification
of the Constitution and the decision to add the Bill of Rights, you might cite
the Anti-Federalists’ argument that without a Bill of Rights specifically guaranteeing
items like the Right to Bear Arms, that the courts might read the Constitution as
granting all powers to it not specifically denied and decide that the Federal
Government can violate precious rights such as Freedom of Expression and the
Right to Bear Arms. One might even cite
Patrick Henry asking
Are we at last brought
to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with
arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in
possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of
Congress? If our defense be the real object of them under the management of
Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose
hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our
own hands?
Of course Madison’s answer to
that was first to say that adding a Bill of Rights was unnecessary because
nothing implied such a construction, and if you included a list of some rights
you would imply that all others would be denied. Eventually Jefferson convinced Madison that
it was better to protect some rights than risk the others, and Madison added in
the Ninth and Tenth Amendment to his proposed Bill of Rights specifically to rebut
the idea that by listing some rights they were implying that all other rights
were denied.
But that is tangential. The point is a student could easily argue
that the Second Amendment (and the Bill of Rights in general) was ratified in
response to exactly those kinds of arguments from the Anti-Federalists.
If we fast forward away from the
founding in the 18th century to the founding in the 19th
century, when the Civil War Amendments were ratified, (the most relevant
amendment, the Fourteenth, was ratified in 1868), the topic might arise
again. Students might point out what I mentioned
in my last
post that
Likewise, in the
American South after the Civil War the KKK and the Red Shirts and like-minded
organizations set about making sure black people were disarmed using means that
were formally legal and otherwise (the KKK was a terrorist organization, after
all). This was not done for their benefit
but so they could be more easily reduced to a state barely distinguishable from
slavery—indeed often so they could be literally returned to slavery.
Similarly, those students might point at the various statements in
support of the ratification of the Fifteenth Amendment, which prohibited racial
discrimination in the vote, declaring that the right to vote was almost as
important as the right to bear arms, as that the right to vote provided a degree
of self-defense for the newly freed slaves.
Such students might argue, as the Supreme Court did in McDonald
v. City of Chicago, that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to apply
the Second Amendment to the states in part to protect the newly freed slaves.
The point of the last few
paragraphs isn’t to demonstrate just how much liberals have to distort history to
pretend the Constitution doesn’t protect the Right to Bear Arms, although that
is always fun and useful in and of itself.
The point is to point out that in discussing the history of America up
until 1877 the Right to Bear Arms is very likely to come up in conversation. The same can be said for other courses he
teachers, such as “Civil War and Reconstruction.” And if a student brings up the subject and
disagrees with his Professor’s anti-gun views, can that student expect to be
treated fairly?
Again, this is a guy, Professor
Loomis, who said gun supporters should be imprisoned, treated as terrorists (which
might be interpreted as endorsing their summary execution) and has whipped up
violence against those who are pro-gun-choice.
Even if you call that hyperbole, it doesn’t bode well for the
possibility of an open and respectful discussion of gun rights in his
class. If a student expresses a
pro-gun-choice view on an exam will that student’s grade be affected by this
professor’s unhinged hatred of this position?
When you work for the state you
do give up some of your freedom of expression; or more precisely what you say
can cast doubt on your fitness for a certain job. Patrick Frey, a good friend of mine and a
Deputy District Attorney, has recently had his Freedom of Expression significantly
vindicated (being ably defended by the same Ken at Popehat I am
respectfully disagreeing with). He is
free to say a great deal. But if he
should ever write in earnest on his blog, “all black people should die and no
white person should be prosecuted for such a ‘murder’” his bosses would have
every right to fire him. Why? Because in that hypothetical, you would
wonder if he would carry out his duties in a racially-neutral fashion as the
law requires. Such a hypothetical expression would call into question his ability to do the job the state has hired him to do, which includes impartially
applying the law without regards to race.
Oh, and it is also a lawsuit
waiting to happen, and a reasonably just one at that.
Fortunately Patrick has done
nothing of the sort and indeed doesn’t think
anything of the sort.
Likewise, Professor Loomis’
comments cast serious doubt on whether Loomis can do his job, which includes
treating all students equally even if they hold a viewpoint he considers
repugnant. This is a command of the
First Amendment and as a state university professor, he is bound to it. Indeed his comments are a lawsuit waiting to
happen.
And that is not the only
problem. Loomis’ comments are so
unhinged his conduct creates what we in law call a chilling effect. The idea is that it is not enough that a
person will not face discrimination at the hands of a state actor for having
engaged in protected speech, but that person has to feel reasonably certain
they will not face that discrimination. If
you are a student in this class, and you have followed this controversy, are
you going to feel safe to express your support for the Second Amendment? It seems reasonable to assume that many students
will bite their tongues, for fear of discrimination against their viewpoints. And that chilling effect is a problem.
I mean, I saw it first hand when I
was at Yale Law School. It will surprise
pretty much no one who knows me that when I disagreed with my professors, I let
them know. For instance, when Bush v. Gore, was decided there was a
great deal of denunciation in class, complaining that the Supreme Court didn’t
follow the law as written, that it let its politics infect the decision. This
was by professors who had no trouble with the Supreme Court pulling new rights
out of his hindquarters in Miranda v.
Arizona and Roe v. Wade and so at
some point the hypocrisy got to be too much for me and I said something fairly
close to this to critics of the decision:
What exactly are you
complaining about? Even if you accept
that they let their biases guide their judgment, that they failed to follow the
Constitution as written, you don’t have a
problem with that. This school has
been ground zero for the idea that judges should rule according to a vague
sense of “justice” rather than the dictates of the law. This school has supported the idea that if
you want a policy badly enough it is okay for a judge to hallucinate it into
the constitution and then impose it on the people in violation of democratic
principles. Just who exactly do you
think you are fooling? The Constitution
no more guarantees a right to an abortion than it sets up a script cops must
say when they arrest someone. This
school has spent the last thirty years undermining the idea that there should
be one branch of our government above politics and that they should follow the
law as written. So the worst you can say
about the Supreme Court is they did what you wanted them to.
You’re not upset
that they didn’t impartially follow the law.
You’re just angry that you lost.
That is not even close to
word-for-word, but it is pretty darn close to what I said. It’s a little more cranky and argumentative
than usual for me, but it gives you a taste of how stridently I expressed
myself when I disagreed with my professors.
And often other students would
come to me after class and say, “I just want to let you know a lot of us
support you.” These would be people who
didn’t actually speak up during class and we all knew why: they were afraid
they would not get a good grade (which is extra ironic because Yale doesn't even have normal grades) or a glowing recommendation. And,
the irony is that their fears were entirely unfounded; some of the professors I
disagreed with the most sharply gave me the highest marks and stellar recommendations. Yale is overwhelmingly liberal, yes, but they
do believe in Academic Freedom.
I mean, after all, they did give
us the late Robert Bork.
And to square the circle, those
professors made it clear that disagreeing with them would not affect one’s
grade or rob them of a recommendation. They didn’t do a thing to foster
that fear. And yet many students were still
afraid to challenge them. So to some
degree a chilling effect cannot be avoided and that is unfortunate. But Loomis has magnified this a hundred fold.
Accordingly, I respectfully
disagree with good people like Adler and Ken at Popehat. It is often said the right to move my hand
ends where your nose begins. Freedom of
speech does not grant to a state actor the right to violate anyone else’s Freedom
of Speech. Accordingly I think he should
be fired, or at the very least severely investigated with an eye toward
determining if he treats students he disagrees with fairly, because his
students have a right to Freedom of Speech, too.
And if you find yourself in his
class, look into the laws dealing with recording others. Protect yourself in case he does behave
inappropriately.
Oh as one final coda to this discussion, I will also say he is not exactly helping his case with that kind of rhetoric.
Dear liberals, you will not convince me to give up my guns by acting like violent fascists @michellemalkin @instapundit michellemalkin.com/2012/12/19/the…
— Aaron Worthing (@AaronWorthing) December 20, 2012
I mean don’t you think somewhere LaPierre is saying, “well thank God I have a gun”? I certainly would be if I were him.
Although, to be fair, liberals are not likely to convince me to turn against the Second Amendment period. As I have joked, if I didn’t support the Second Amendment before I was being stalked by convicted terrorist Brett Kimberlin, that sure as hell would have done it for me.
---------------------------------------
* As Jonah Goldberg correctly
notes in his book Liberal
Fascism, the term “fascism” does not have an agreed upon definition. People often define it as “right wing” or “nationalistic”
and Goldberg argues that many liberal policies have roots in fascism. Orwell, of course, correctly said it was mainly
used to designate a point of view you don’t like.
But when I use the term, I am
informed by the difference between what Bruce Ackerman calls high politics and
low politics. High politics is things
like Freedom of Speech, the Right to Vote, whether we are a Democracy, the end
of Slavery and so on. Low politics is
the tax rate, how much exactly we will spend on the military, whether they will
fill in the pothole in the corner. The difference
between low politics and high is that high politics is about fundamental issues
of freedom and democracy and low politics is about what you do once freedom and
democracy is established. High politics
is establishing the right to advocate
for a certain tax rate. Low politics is
determining what the tax rate will be.
So for me the only useful
definition of fascism is tied into that concept. I don’t care if it is associated with
abortion, or nationalism. The reason why
fascism is a bad thing is its tendency to establish a dictatorship and to
suppress views they don’t agree with. So
when I call someone a fascist it is for that reason.
Arguably the mere act of
advocating gun control is fascist under that definition, but I do not call that
alone fascist. Most people who advocate
for gun control do not do this because they hope to see Democracy
overthrown. They do it because they
believe it will keep us safer. So I do
not call them fascists. I suppose if
someone says “I want to take away your guns so that I can stage a coup,” I will
call that person a fascist, but just calling for gun control doesn’t earn you
that title in my book.
Because Orwell is right. The term fascism is only useful as a pejorative,
and it should be reserved for the most dangerous and un-American views.
---------------------------------------
My wife and I have lost our jobs
due to the harassment of convicted terrorist Brett Kimberlin, including an
attempt to get us killed and to frame me for a crime carrying a sentence of up
to ten years. I know that claim sounds
fantastic, but if you read starting here, you will see absolute proof of these
claims using documentary and video evidence.
If you would like to help in the fight to hold Mr. Kimberlin accountable,
please hit the Blogger’s Defense Team button on the right. And thank you.
Follow me at Twitter @aaronworthing,
mostly for snark and site updates. And
you can purchase my book (or borrow it for free if you have Amazon Prime), Archangel: A Novel of Alternate, Recent
History here.
And you can read a little more about my novel, here.
---------------------------------------
Disclaimer:
I have accused some people,
particularly Brett Kimberlin, of
reprehensible conduct. In some cases, the conduct is even
criminal. In all cases, the only justice I want is through the
appropriate legal process—such as the criminal justice system. I do not want to see vigilante violence
against any person or any threat of such violence. This kind of conduct is not only morally
wrong, but it is counter-productive.
In the particular case of Brett
Kimberlin, I do not want you to even contact him. Do not call him. Do not write him a letter. Do not write him an email. Do not text-message him. Do not engage in any kind of directed
communication. I say this in part
because under Maryland law, that can quickly become harassment and I don’t want
that to happen to him.
And for that matter, don’t go on
his property. Don’t sneak around and try
to photograph him. Frankly try not to
even be within his field of vision. Your
behavior could quickly cross the line into harassment in that way too (not to
mention trespass and other concerns).
And do not contact his
organizations, either. And most of all, leave his family alone.
The only exception to all that is
that if you are reporting on this, there is of course nothing wrong with
contacting him for things like his official response to any stories you might
report. And even then if he tells you to
stop contacting him, obey that request. That
this is a key element in making out a harassment claim under Maryland law—that
a person asks you to stop and you refuse.
And let me say something
else. In my heart of hearts, I don’t
believe that any person supporting me has done any of the above. But if any of you have, stop it, and if you
haven’t don’t start.
Superb article. Your argument is certainly persuasive, as was the argument Ken put up at Popehat the other day. I sort of split the difference.
ReplyDeleteI certainly think an investigation should be done in to how he treats his students who disagree with policies he advocates for. Depending on the outcome of that investigation would hinge weather or not he should be fired, IMO.
At the VERY least he should be given a reprimand by the head of his department. I can also see his comments as a good reason to deny tenure.
I think if you identify yourself as belonging to an organization such as a public University, etc, as a matter of course then you are agreeing that you REPRESENT such institution. Even on your off time you should self censor your more radical thoughts instead of publishing them for the world to see. If you do not, be prepared to face the consequences of your actions.
Anyway, hope you were able to follow my ramblings above.
Wayne LaPierre is an elected president of an organization accurately expressing the beliefs of the organization and those who elected him. When Loomis calls for his arrest/death he's calling for the arrest and death of all those within the organization.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading this post. There are points with which I agree, and points upon which I differ. However, the reason I comment is: I am a radical (in the sense of once concerned with root cause above derived position). In my case, this has led to me being very liberal.
ReplyDeleteI am a stauch supporter of the 2nd Ammendment - as are many other liberals. Using broad labels such a liberal when a more narrow one, such as anti-gun rights is perhaps not helpful.